New Dermaroller Study; Thoughts, comments?

[closetmetrosexual]

I hope you only used water for this and not mixing it with anything...

I was planning to mix Cet with my minoxidil solution.

Are you saying this is a bad idea? How come?

Thanks.

 

[TNTS]

@ the other rolling folks: I already posted my observations of pain and bleeding decrease in one of my last posts in this thread but got no reply. Can anyone confirm my observations, i.e., an increase in scalp flexibility and a decrease in pain and the amount of blood drawn?

After one week on this kind of massage, it happened exactly the same thing to me.
Considerably less pain and almost no blood at all.

 

[opti]

@ benjit: my skin on the temples especially is kinda thin but hard...since i massage it sometimes and use dermaroller it became a bit softer ...
well i 'd say im a Norwood 2-3, my tonsure is quite good at but my temples are driving me crazy since they re becoming bigger as well as my hairline recedes slowly.I m also full of VERY much miniaturized hair which are like 3 cm long but dont wanna grow anymore...

i hope i can boost them with dermaroller a bit since minoxidil wont make it much better alone

 

[benjt]

Ok, since we know of at least three people now reporting the same - TNTS, opti, and me - I want to reiterate on this matter. Because fibrotic skin gets harder as fibrosis progresses (which is, like, the point from a systemic perspective anyway). So we got three people here that report softer skin since rigorous massages. Could it be that there is something to this detumescence therapy after all? Maybe we're reversing the skin stiffening (and thus maybe fibrosis) here?

 

[super]

Making a long post with what i talked about with my doctor this last time i went there. To anybody that doesn't know, i have been doing the dermaroller stuff for 1,5 year, but only once a month or once in 1.5 month. With this study i scheduled with my doctor to go there twice a month, pretty excited to see what will happen in 3 or 4 months, since i have been seeing cosmetic results.

- He uses a 1.5mm roller, CTS-150

- He said drawing blood IS KEY, because it is the only way to know that we are doing the damage at follicle level.

- He is not sure a 2.5mm would be better, because it could go below follicle level. But since people are doing it to themselves, a 2.5mm roller could be better to make damage at follicle level (if you are drawing blood it is good enough)

- He does it in a very big area, my scalp really hurts for like 2 days and for 2 days the redness is so visible that when i go out i have to use a hat or a cap. The pain totally fades after like 4 or 5 days.

- Important: he said that cells can heal up to 40 days after wounding. That means that new hair follicles could appear up to 40 days after one roll.

- His dad (the one that created my treatment, guy is a genius when it come to regenerative and also cosmetic skin treatments) said he wants to make my "dead area" (crown) "live" again. He means, make it become an area with a lot of blood flow. To him, if he manages to do that, i would be "cured". The treatment makes new hair grow, but in his vision only with a good amount of blood flow the hair will stay and grow stronger. And seeing that my results began to sky rocket after i got more blood flow on my scalp, i would say he is right. (my hair doesn't fall anymore, so i have been slowly gaining more hair than i am loosing)

- After the procedure, my head, as i said, becomes red for days. And there is so much blood flow going to my head that even my face becomes pink 1 or 2 days after (i am pretty white, so the pink will appear easier)

- My doctor took an amplified picture of a spot of my crown area (that had no hair) and showed me. In one picture there was a full-grown hair, a growing hair (in the middle of the way) and a tiny new hair. He said that i was like that all over that area, hairs from different sizes. Of course it makes sense, since with each roll (mine took, till now, 1 month) a new "batch" of hairs appear. He also said that in my temple area i had way more new hair growing, but they were way smaller, like a beard. From my experience, since i had no hair on my temples and now i have a lot, those "beard hairs" are growing, slowly, but growing.

- I will probably get my cd with the pictures next time i go there

- From what i can say, i am really liking the treatment. To me, it is kind of like my baldness is "cured", but it will take time. I lost all the hair i had in 7 years, i can't expect it to grow in months. My scalp is getting more and more blood flow, i am getting more and more hair (i would say maybe in almost the same speed i was loosing before, slowly but steady). That is why i am excited to see what will happen in like 4 months now that i will go there 2 times per month. Now i also know that if i do a hair transplant, my hair will stay there, so it could really speed-up the "healing" process (like insted of taking 3 years to be with a good amount of hair, i could take months - i will wait till january to see if i will go or not for a hair transplant, after we see the results of the treatment).

- About the blood flow: i really like the idea of doing the rolling once a week. Because, if the blood flow is as important as my doctors believe, if you do the procedure the right way, you will probably have a scalp with a lot more blood flow for days. This means, if you do the rolling once a week, you will be artificially creating a scalp that has a good amount of blood flow almost all the time.

I think i said everything i talked about with him, and more (things that i am seeing and feeling). If i forgot something, i tell you guys later!

 

[odalbak]

@ odalbak: As I said, the authors of the study went for 1.5 mm for a reason. I read up on scalp skin thickness and even in the worst cases of Androgenetic Alopecia/male pattern baldness, there is noone with less than 1.5 mm of skin (epidermis, dermis, subcutis). 1.5 mm should be completely safe to use (except if you dont desinfect properly).

The Indian therapists didn't insert the 1.5mm needles all the way. Hence my choice of using the 1.0mm but all the way to get consistency and know exactly what I'm doing.

I know there's no risk of touching the skull, but I just don't want to be piercing the galea in any way, especially in the long term, and I don't think it's far from 1.5mm on my very thin and hardened temples, maybe less.

 

[theRA]

I think i said everything i talked about with him, and more (things that i am seeing and feeling). If i forgot something, i tell you guys later!

thx super for your time and input

 

[DesperateOne]

I agree, the headline pics are misleading...



DO NOT USE THIS, this might kill you, I am not joking, don't even let this touch your finger, it will wound your skin for weeks with a very sharp pain... pure capsaicin can be very dangerous... Just get any 0.15% capsaicin from walgreens, they are very cheap. Also you should note that the hair inductive capacity of TRPV1 is dose dependent with very short burst activation of the vallinoid 1 signaling actually boosting hair growth. So do not leave it in for long period, too much activation will actually inhibit growth and can cause apoptosis, in culture I should say, I don't think you can even achieve such thing topically, but better tread on the safe side). I personally wash my hair after 10 or 15mn, when I start to feel the burn.



I hope you only used water for this and not mixing it with anything... on a side note, cetirizine for WIHN sounds very promising. Cet, it seems acts downstream of DP2 (CRTH2) through inhibition of eosinophilia to mediate some of it effects, so it can only be good to add it.

Well I did dissolve it in water the way mentioned in many forums, however I applied it today after I applied minoxidil. Was that a bad idea? Or should I just apply Cet in the morning or maybe after 4 hours after minoxidil, I really don't know what to do.

Also, Rambo. Is this a good one to buy for capsaicin?
http://www.amazon.com/Capzasin-HP-Arthritis-Analgesic-1-Percent-Capsaicin/dp/B001G7QGYA

 

[Admin]

Squeeg! resist the tempt to mention the masturbation thing anymore please. Thanks!

Admin

 

[DesperateOne]

Making a long post with what i talked about with my doctor this last time i went there. To anybody that doesn't know, i have been doing the dermaroller stuff for 1,5 year, but only once a month or once in 1.5 month. With this study i scheduled with my doctor to go there twice a month, pretty excited to see what will happen in 3 or 4 months, since i have been seeing cosmetic results.

- He uses a 1.5mm roller, CTS-150

- He said drawing blood IS KEY, because it is the only way to know that we are doing the damage at follicle level.

- He is not sure a 2.5mm would be better, because it could go below follicle level. But since people are doing it to themselves, a 2.5mm roller could be better to make damage at follicle level (if you are drawing blood it is good enough)

- He does it in a very big area, my scalp really hurts for like 2 days and for 2 days the redness is so visible that when i go out i have to use a hat or a cap. The pain totally fades after like 4 or 5 days.

- Important: he said that cells can heal up to 40 days after wounding. That means that new hair follicles could appear up to 40 days after one roll.

- His dad (the one that created my treatment, guy is a genius when it come to regenerative and also cosmetic skin treatments) said he wants to make my "dead area" (crown) "live" again. He means, make it become an area with a lot of blood flow. To him, if he manages to do that, i would be "cured". The treatment makes new hair grow, but in his vision only with a good amount of blood flow the hair will stay and grow stronger. And seeing that my results began to sky rocket after i got more blood flow on my scalp, i would say he is right. (my hair doesn't fall anymore, so i have been slowly gaining more hair than i am loosing)

- After the procedure, my head, as i said, becomes red for days. And there is so much blood flow going to my head that even my face becomes pink 1 or 2 days after (i am pretty white, so the pink will appear easier)

- My doctor took an amplified picture of a spot of my crown area (that had no hair) and showed me. In one picture there was a full-grown hair, a growing hair (in the middle of the way) and a tiny new hair. He said that i was like that all over that area, hairs from different sizes. Of course it makes sense, since with each roll (mine took, till now, 1 month) a new "batch" of hairs appear. He also said that in my temple area i had way more new hair growing, but they were way smaller, like a beard. From my experience, since i had no hair on my temples and now i have a lot, those "beard hairs" are growing, slowly, but growing.

- I will probably get my cd with the pictures next time i go there

- From what i can say, i am really liking the treatment. To me, it is kind of like my baldness is "cured", but it will take time. I lost all the hair i had in 7 years, i can't expect it to grow in months. My scalp is getting more and more blood flow, i am getting more and more hair (i would say maybe in almost the same speed i was loosing before, slowly but steady). That is why i am excited to see what will happen in like 4 months now that i will go there 2 times per month. Now i also know that if i do a hair transplant, my hair will stay there, so it could really speed-up the "healing" process (like insted of taking 3 years to be with a good amount of hair, i could take months - i will wait till january to see if i will go or not for a hair transplant, after we see the results of the treatment).

- About the blood flow: i really like the idea of doing the rolling once a week. Because, if the blood flow is as important as my doctors believe, if you do the procedure the right way, you will probably have a scalp with a lot more blood flow for days. This means, if you do the rolling once a week, you will be artificially creating a scalp that has a good amount of blood flow almost all the time.

I think i said everything i talked about with him, and more (things that i am seeing and feeling). If i forgot something, i tell you guys later!

Super can you find out exactly what numbing cream your doctor uses? I know you advocate much about blood flow but you and the doctor have to understand that solid research on woundng theory for male pattern baldness has been done by Dr. Cot. So blood flow may be just a after effect but the real regrowth will be because of growth factors not blood flow, maybe they both do their part.

 

[opti]

Ok, since we know of at least three people now reporting the same - TNTS, opti, and me - I want to reiterate on this matter. Because fibrotic skin gets harder as fibrosis progresses (which is, like, the point from a systemic perspective anyway). So we got three people here that report softer skin since rigorous massages. Could it be that there is something to this detumescence therapy after all? Maybe we're reversing the skin stiffening (and thus maybe fibrosis) here?

well skin fibrosis is something that blocks blood flow to hair follices. i think thats why mostly finasterid or minoxidil wont work on hair line/temples that good,because there is not much blood flow to the hair.Maybe DHT does lead to fibrosis to, since women dont have that much DHT,they have more estrogen ,and there is no woman having temples/receding hairline...just my 2 cents


edit: Emu oil or castor oil are also used to stimulate collagen synthesis ...thats why they can grow ur temples also back..Maybe a combination of both can work really good, minoxidil on the other day for pushing growth factors and voila

 

[Breaking Bald]

Thanks super for the info on your procedure.

Does anybody else wonder why they didn't provide more pictures for the results? Considering that they had quite a lot of people taking part in the trial.

 

[ganonford]

Benjt... I may sound like an idiot here... but I don't understand... why would massaging the scalp reduce blood loss while using the dermaroller?, shouldn't it be the other way around?... as in improving the circulation to your scalp?...

Or is it that, as you loosen up your scalp there's less resistance and the needles go smoother through your skin and you just bleed less?...

 

[benjt]

well skin fibrosis is something that blocks blood flow to hair follices. i think thats why mostly finasterid or minoxidil wont work on hair line/temples that good,because there is not much blood flow to the hair.

I wish it was that easy. And if it really was that easy, minoxidil should regrow hair all over your head. But it doesn't. The problem is that fibrosis kills BAT (brown adipose tissue). BAT is found in the subcutis and is responsible for angiogenesis - the creation of small blood vessels for nutrient supply. And that's the problem. As fibrosis progresses, the fibrotic tissue does not only squeeze follicles until they can no longer push out no hair, the destroyed BAT results in a loss of local blood vessels, depriving follicles of blood supply. I guess this is why constant minoxidil is required to maintain hair - it takes over the job of the otherwise nonexistant blood vessels (cause dead cause BAT dead) by ensuring blood supply. Only a guess though, but I guess it isnt so far off and makes sense in a way.
And that's also why super's doctor says we need to go deep enough to draw blood: this is obviously where blood vessels are, so the area where we need tissue (i.e.: BAT) regeneration. Makes sense to me at least. So we need not only get tissue regeneration in the deeper part of the dermis (to beat fibrosis directly around the follicle), but also at BAT level in the subcutis.

Maybe DHT does lead to fibrosis to, since women dont have that much DHT,they have more estrogen ,and there is no woman having temples/receding hairline...just my 2 cents

I am fairly convinced of DHT being the trigger (make no mistake: not the cause) of fibrosis. There is essentially a local wrongful auto-immune reaction to DHT (which is, by the way, also produced locally around follicles). The immune system sends macrophages and triggers chronic inflammation. The problem is that chronic inflammation leads to fibrosis. There you got your chain of events.

edit: Emu oil or castor oil are also used to stimulate collagen synthesis ...thats why they can grow ur temples also back..Maybe a combination of both can work really good, minoxidil on the other day for pushing growth factors and voila

Definitely worth a shot. I guess that the oils' main help in our cause is not the collagen synthesis, but that they're rich in omega 3 fatty acids, which - surprise - are exactly what BAT is made of.

Or is it that, as you loosen up your scalp there's less resistance and the needles go smoother through your skin and you just bleed less?...

Exactly. And that's really what we want. Fibrotic is hard. Bald scalp is fibrotic. Non-bald scalp is not fibrotic, thus soft. My hope is that the softness induced through massages + rolling will create conditions for regrowth (e.g. cause it breaks up fibrotic collagen).

 

[Chromeo]

@super Great post bro, keep us up to date with that.

@closet You wanna keep Cet and minoxidil separate, mate. The Cet is apparently degraded by the alcohol in Minoxidil, hence the lack of an alcohol-based vehicle for Cet. I personally would apply it first and leave it a while before applying minoxidil.

 

[squeegee]

Making a long post with what i talked about with my doctor this last time i went there. To anybody that doesn't know, i have been doing the dermaroller stuff for 1,5 year, but only once a month or once in 1.5 month. With this study i scheduled with my doctor to go there twice a month, pretty excited to see what will happen in 3 or 4 months, since i have been seeing cosmetic results.

- He uses a 1.5mm roller, CTS-150

- He said drawing blood IS KEY, because it is the only way to know that we are doing the damage at follicle level.

- He is not sure a 2.5mm would be better, because it could go below follicle level. But since people are doing it to themselves, a 2.5mm roller could be better to make damage at follicle level (if you are drawing blood it is good enough)

- He does it in a very big area, my scalp really hurts for like 2 days and for 2 days the redness is so visible that when i go out i have to use a hat or a cap. The pain totally fades after like 4 or 5 days.

- Important: he said that cells can heal up to 40 days after wounding. That means that new hair follicles could appear up to 40 days after one roll.

- His dad (the one that created my treatment, guy is a genius when it come to regenerative and also cosmetic skin treatments) said he wants to make my "dead area" (crown) "live" again. He means, make it become an area with a lot of blood flow. To him, if he manages to do that, i would be "cured". The treatment makes new hair grow, but in his vision only with a good amount of blood flow the hair will stay and grow stronger. And seeing that my results began to sky rocket after i got more blood flow on my scalp, i would say he is right. (my hair doesn't fall anymore, so i have been slowly gaining more hair than i am loosing)

- After the procedure, my head, as i said, becomes red for days. And there is so much blood flow going to my head that even my face becomes pink 1 or 2 days after (i am pretty white, so the pink will appear easier)

- My doctor took an amplified picture of a spot of my crown area (that had no hair) and showed me. In one picture there was a full-grown hair, a growing hair (in the middle of the way) and a tiny new hair. He said that i was like that all over that area, hairs from different sizes. Of course it makes sense, since with each roll (mine took, till now, 1 month) a new "batch" of hairs appear. He also said that in my temple area i had way more new hair growing, but they were way smaller, like a beard. From my experience, since i had no hair on my temples and now i have a lot, those "beard hairs" are growing, slowly, but growing.

- I will probably get my cd with the pictures next time i go there

- From what i can say, i am really liking the treatment. To me, it is kind of like my baldness is "cured", but it will take time. I lost all the hair i had in 7 years, i can't expect it to grow in months. My scalp is getting more and more blood flow, i am getting more and more hair (i would say maybe in almost the same speed i was loosing before, slowly but steady). That is why i am excited to see what will happen in like 4 months now that i will go there 2 times per month. Now i also know that if i do a hair transplant, my hair will stay there, so it could really speed-up the "healing" process (like insted of taking 3 years to be with a good amount of hair, i could take months - i will wait till january to see if i will go or not for a hair transplant, after we see the results of the treatment).

- About the blood flow: i really like the idea of doing the rolling once a week. Because, if the blood flow is as important as my doctors believe, if you do the procedure the right way, you will probably have a scalp with a lot more blood flow for days. This means, if you do the rolling once a week, you will be artificially creating a scalp that has a good amount of blood flow almost all the time.

I think i said everything i talked about with him, and more (things that i am seeing and feeling). If i forgot something, i tell you guys later!

Super!! that is a damn good post! Thanks for the input!!:salut: Bleeding is the key!

- - - Updated - - -

opti, I am pretty sure that this depends on how tight/fibrotic your scalp tissue is. I made two observations:
- after my third rolling session both the level of pain and the amount of blood drawn significantly decreased every subsequent rolling session. I did my latest rolling session yesterday and I hardly drew any blood. On my first session my whole scalp was covered in one bloody crust.
- scalp massages help tremendously in scalp tissue permuteability. They also reduce both pain and bleeding. Do the massages thoroughly.

I presume your Androgenetic Alopecia is rather advanced?

@ odalbak: As I said, the authors of the study went for 1.5 mm for a reason. I read up on scalp skin thickness and even in the worst cases of Androgenetic Alopecia/male pattern baldness, there is noone with less than 1.5 mm of skin (epidermis, dermis, subcutis). 1.5 mm should be completely safe to use (except if you dont desinfect properly).

@ squeegee: Frakkin cut it out. The thread got back on topic finally and everybody was all peaceful. Stop getting verbal with people for no reason.

@ the other rolling folks: I already posted my observations of pain and bleeding decrease in one of my last posts in this thread but got no reply. Can anyone confirm my observations, i.e., an increase in scalp flexibility and a decrease in pain and the amount of blood drawn?

Benjit! you are on the ball with that posting.. less pain,less blood. Same here. I am at 3.0mm right now.

- - - Updated - - -

Squeeg! resist the tempt to mention the masturbation thing anymore please. Thanks!

Admin

hahaha Sorry! but I did buy a washable keyboard for real unk: Admin! Did you join the yahoosss bandwagon and started rollin??

 

[super]

Super can you find out exactly what numbing cream your doctor uses? I know you advocate much about blood flow but you and the doctor have to understand that solid research on woundng theory for male pattern baldness has been done by Dr. Cot. So blood flow may be just a after effect but the real regrowth will be because of growth factors not blood flow, maybe they both do their part.

No, no, no. They do not discard the wounding theory. That is what makes new hair. They even said that a better blood flow helps you get even more hair when wounding, because you need blood to heal. The blood flow stuff is to maintain and grow hair. Without blood those new hair follicles would die. So, the better your blood flow is, the better your healing will be. And if you wound your scalp you will be increasing your blood flow too. So, it is basically the same thing. But, visually, what he wants is to make the scalp pink or red, when it becomes pink or red, he knows things are going really good.

He uses a numbing cream they make. So i have no idea what it has. The same for the peeling formula. It is a formula he makes himself.

The guy does a lot of stuff for free, stuff that a lot of people pay a lot of money to do. He makes money from the costumers he charges, selling his own products too and research. They do all kind of stuff related to skin, skin regeneration and plastic surgery. He actually don't work with hair, but decided to help me because my mother asked him.

I also use a product to help the healing in the same day and the following day of the procedure. After that, minoxidil.

Here is the formula of the product (it is from Skin Renu, Accelerated Skin Rebuilding Formula - i couldn't find it in their site, though):

Ingredients: Olive Oil, Beeswax, Colostrum, Glyreryl Stearate, PEG-100 Stearate, Squalene, Ceramide 3, Phytosphingosine, Mixed Tocopherols

 

[squeegee]

http://shop.owndoc.com/p-177/infadolan.html is really popular among the derma rolling community for collagen cream booster, retinoic acid and topical Vitamin C to boost collagen production..

 

[DesperateOne]

@super Great post bro, keep us up to date with that.

@closet You wanna keep Cet and minoxidil separate, mate. The Cet is apparently degraded by the alcohol in Minoxidil, hence the lack of an alcohol-based vehicle for Cet. I personally would apply it first and leave it a while before applying minoxidil.

Thanks for the Cet advice, I had seen in every forum that they mix it with PG. I guess I made the mistake today of applying it at the same time. One last thing, I really just winged it when applying, I just put enough until my scalp was covered, can that be dangerous? I think I felt some feeling of vibrations if that means anything.

 

[Jacob]

http://shop.owndoc.com/p-177/infadolan.html is really popular among the derma rolling community for collagen cream booster, retinoic acid and topical Vitamin C to boost collagen production..

Lipo/Nano C unk:

It's in the one Elsom product I'm currently using..but maybe I should add this again: http://elsomresearch.com/shopping/products/skin-renewal.htm

http://www.lippomix.com/l_c cream.asp

http://www.leylainanir.com/viya/sci...ction in Human Fibroblasts with Vitamin C.pdf