New Dermaroller Study; Thoughts, comments?

[mj9]

I started Dermarolling end of July and looking at my hair now, they seem thicker. I went from 0.5 to 1.5mm only about 2 weeks ago.... I had taken photo's but stupidly lost the initial ones... Anyway, taking photo's again so will post them in a couple of weeks (if there are any changes). I'm also on min and finasteride since a few year....

Oh and my scalp hardly bleeds - i get a few dots of blood now and again...

 

[selfaware]

....My only other question is I haven't been able to use minoxidil in the past, it is either the pg or alcohol that just irritates the heck out of my skin and causes my hair to look worse after using it for a few weeks. I would love to use it in conjunction with DR, do you think a once a day application with foam (which doesn't have Pg) might help or just use some other hair growth promoter?

Cody, fwiw...When I first started minoxidil 4-5 wks ago, I was using the usual Kirkland 5%, which is plain vanilla minoxidil with all the usual alcohols etc., all through my hair....and the expensive Spectral DNC-L only on the two 'bald' recessions in front, and the still-has-hair area between them. And my scalp began itching like crazy!..lol...I even began scratching it in my sleep. About 1-2 weeks in, I just stopped using the Kirkland crap completely (except on my beard, where it doesn't seem to itch much, to see if it might bring back color).

So...even if you have a larger area to treat than I do, try using the DNC-L instead of plain vanilla minoxidil....see if all your irritation goes away like it did for me. Yeah, it's more expensive, but besides not having nearly as much nasty alcohol etc., it's also nanosomed for far better penetration, and it contains all kinds of stuff the plain-jane minoxidil like Kirkland doesn't have (such as copper-peptides etc etc). Getting your hair back has -gotta- be worth the extra bucks for few months, right?

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Any tretinoin cream.
Women use this stuff for anti-aging/anti-wrinkle cream. I myself use it for anti-acne. It's the only thing that ever has worked for me. Its amazing stuff.
Problem is you need an Rx to get the cream.
But if you can get an Rx, this cream costs next to nothing from the Indian online pharmacies (their cream is the same as sold in the West, no worries)

Of course, if you buy from an Indian IOP, ya don't need the scrip in the first place!

 

[squeegee]

[h=1]Percutaneous collagen induction–regeneration in place of cicatrisation?[/h]
[h=4]Background[/h]Ablative procedures that are used for the improvement of a degenerative process that leads to a loss of skin elasticity and integrity, injure or destroy the epidermis and its basement membrane and lead to fibrosis of the papillary dermis. It was recently shown in clinical and laboratory trials that percutaneous collagen induction (PCI) by multiple needle application is a method for safely treating wrinkles and scars and smoothening the skin without the risk of dyspigmentation. In our study, we describe the effect of PCI on epidermal thickness and the induction of genes relevant for regenerative processes in the skin in a small animal model.
[h=4]Methods[/h]The purpose of this study in a rat model was to determine the effects of PCI on the skin both qualitatively and quantitatively. The epidermal and dermal changes were observed by histology and immunofluorescence. The changes in gene expression were measured by array analysis for cytokines, such as vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF), fibroblast growth factor (FGF)-7, epidermal growth factor (EGF) and extracellular matrix molecules such as collagen type I and type III.
[h=4]Results[/h]The present study showed that PCI with topical vitamins resulted in a 140% increase in epidermal thickness; an increase in gene and protein expression of collagen I, glycosaminoglycans (GAGs) and growth factors such as VEGF, EGF and FGF7. The collagen fibre bundles were increased, thickened, and more loosely woven in both the papillary and reticular dermis


http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1748681510001798

 

[benjt]

Didn't super want to post his photos by Tuesday or something like that? Did he already and I just missed the post?

Also, how long is FredTheBelgian already spamming the forums with wrong info on purpose? This is really going on my nerves because he is stalking me in all the minoxidil threads, discrediting everything I say without any proof.

 

[cthulhu2.0]

Cody, fwiw...When I first started minoxidil 4-5 wks ago, I was using the usual Kirkland 5%, which is plain vanilla minoxidil with all the usual alcohols etc., all through my hair....and the expensive Spectral DNC-L only on the two 'bald' recessions in front, and the still-has-hair area between them. And my scalp began itching like crazy!..lol...I even began scratching it in my sleep. About 1-2 weeks in, I just stopped using the Kirkland crap completely (except on my beard, where it doesn't seem to itch much, to see if it might bring back color).

So...even if you have a larger area to treat than I do, try using the DNC-L instead of plain vanilla minoxidil....see if all your irritation goes away like it did for me. Yeah, it's more expensive, but besides not having nearly as much nasty alcohol etc., it's also nanosomed for far better penetration, and it contains all kinds of stuff the plain-jane minoxidil like Kirkland doesn't have (such as copper-peptides etc etc). Getting your hair back has -gotta- be worth the extra bucks for few months, right?

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Of course, if you buy from an Indian IOP, ya don't need the scrip in the first place!

I would only buy from major suppliers like Kirkland. With these other small suppliers, you may not know what you're getting. Besides, Kirkland is dirt cheap. It is probably just the alcohol that is bothering your scalp, however it is necessary for absorption. I would use it only once a day if it is bothering your scalp too much, that was what I had to do.

 

[DesperateOne]

I haven't posted in a few days, and it looks like the same thing, so I guess Squeegee's post says something good?
We should just wait about 2-3 weeks before doing the procedure again. Well I have recently massaged my scalp almost every day and well I can't help but to remember
that one time I asked my barber is she knew a way to regrow hair back. This was back then when I had most of it and didn't know a thing about hair loss, she told me
that believe it or not she has been massaging her scalp and hair started growing. I actually took it to be nothing but crap, to be honest. Now however, I do think
she was up to something, even though she knew absolutely nothing about the process. I am just waiting to get into a new job next week to get some cash and will
follow Rambo's internal regime almost to the letter and hope for the best(what is can we do right?...) Did he ever supplied his full current topical treatment so far? hmm I will have to search for it.

 

[selfaware]

Yes, I'm really hoping we aren't damaging the skin too much. I recalled at the end of the study them mentioning that full thickness wounds are the main cause for these tumor producing cells but I don't believe micro needling constitutes full thickness wounding. Anybody have any info on this?

well....3mm probably does constitute 'full thickness'...lol

Was reading a 'summation' about dermarolling that came up in a search hit last week, and in the flow of his thoughts, the man touched on an interesting thing that hadn't even occurred to me... The Hayflick Limit !

There's only a certain number of times our cells can divide...that's the Hayflick Limit. He wondered if repeated dermarolling might be accelerating the "using up" of our cells' potential to divide. Made some sense. In terms of the follicles themselves, probably not an issue, since they're being created 'new' from stem-cells. But for all the other billions of cells in the scalp/skin...hmmm... ????

 

[Chelaxing]

I'm interested in ramboo's topical regimen as well.

 

[princessRambo]

I haven't posted in a few days, and it looks like the same thing, so I guess Squeegee's post says something good?
We should just wait about 2-3 weeks before doing the procedure again

Yeah, about the waiting stuff I said way earlier in the thread that a week was too short the way many people were stabbing their head . I still feel like many people should just follow the derma roller trial and do light wounding (no blood), wait one week and then repeat. If you don't have a fgf9 or at least pge2, having minoxidil indirectly inducing fgf9 is a long shot. At least you will have enough growth factors weekly to help existing follicle, probably the way the massaging theory works. Cots is telling us in the video below to not go all cheese grater on your shiny heads unless we have fgf9, lucky bastard with a full head of almost negative norwood:

[video=youtube;gaLaMBHIdBs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaLaMBHIdBs[/video]

Also the unpigmented white hair they are discussing in the mouse wound, hellouser reported a long unpigmented terminal looking hair, wonder if anybody is seeing this.

follow Rambo's internal regime almost to the letter and hope for the best(what is can we do right?...) Did he ever supplied his full current topical treatment so far? hmm I will have to search for it.

about my topicals: you already know one of them , I use Calciportriol every other day (occasionally every 3 days). I use capsaicin mixed with keto 1% + caffeine shampo 3 times a day (stays on for 10-15mn), yeah lots of broscientist will tell you that keto should only be used couple of times a week, I say, show me a single study claiming that, it's something that's been repeated over and over without any facts behind it.
In fact the japanese study on 2% keto vs 2% minoxidil used a cream that stayed on all night.

I also use topical EGCG + resveratrol (tried topical curcumin but the yellow stain is unbearable). I also have different mixtures combining capsaicin with EGCG and resveratrol as a leave in topical, but it is not a high concentration of cap, otherwise, leaving it in burns like a mofo. I have now included minoxidil 4 times a day to my daily regiment since I started the wounding thing.

Again some people will say that will stop your heart, I say, broscience, in fact there is study that tried application of minoxidil 2 4 6 and 8 times a day and they didn't find any more systemic increase from 8 times to 2 times, the authors concluded that the initial application saturates the scalp enough to prevent further systemic absorption. So if you are not sensitive to a single dose of topical minoxidil's system effect, you will like not feel anything different applying 8 times a day.

Now does that work better? The study didn't investigate the efficacy, but only the systemic absorption. Lots of people concluded from that study that 2 times is as much efficient as 8 times, but that again is broscience because 4h is maximum absorption time of minoxidil, so it stands to reason that if you space them out by 4h, you are likely benefiting the hair follicles (I tend to go off topic sometimes). Sorry for the typos, typing on my cellphone while trying to catch up on Homeland

Reason I love curcumin so much, well, I am telling you guys, that little molecule is magical. At least I might live longer:

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/may/01/scientists-ageing-process

Writing in the journal Nature, the scientists describe how their research led them to what appears to be the body's control centre for ageing. They found that a chemical called NF-kB became more active in the hypothalamus of mice as they got older. When the researchers blocked the substance, mice lived up to 1,100 days, compared with 600 to 1000 days for normal healthy mice. When they boosted NF-kB in mice, they all died within 900 days.Tests on the animals six months into the study found that those without NF-kB had more muscle and bone, were better at learning, and had healthier skin than controls.
Further work showed that NF-kB lowered levels of a hormone called GnRH, which is better known for the central role it plays in fertility and the development of sperm and eggs. When the scientists gave old mice daily jabs of GnRH, they found this too extended the animals' lives, and even caused fresh neurons to grow in their brains.

What is the most potent inhibitor of NF Kb? Curcumin, even more so when combined with resveratrol. It seems NF KB pops its ugly head in almost all known inflammatory diseases.

 

[squeegee]

According to DR. Desmond Fernandes, You get better results from using bigger needle and drawing more blood. Don't forget that the whole purpose of derma rolling is bleeding in the first place. If your are in doubt, don't forget the BBQ guy!

When doing the 3-mm Roll-Cit needling, the needles

penetrate about 1.5 to 2 mm into the dermis and
automatically initiate a complex chemical cascade. Platelets
instigate the release of various factors that set up a chain
reaction with the eventual production of numerous growth
factors. Fibroblasts migrate into the area, and this surge of
activity inevitably leads to the production of more collagen
and more elastin. Keratinocytes migrate rapidly across the
minute epidermal defect and then proliferate, so the
epidermis becomes thicker. Because this needling is deeper,
it causes more trauma, and that means that swelling
automatically follows.

http://files.kotisivukone.com/karl-ludwig.kotisivukone.com/tiedostot/clinicsdermatology2008_pci.pdf

 

[closetmetrosexual]

It's okay if you think it's better to not follow the exact study procedure, but I'm curious about how you hide your (most likely) red and inflamed skin during the healing time, so nobody points at you and run away scared.

I wear a bandana the first two days, then a baseball cap the next three days.

 

[squeegee]

http://www.bmj.com/highwire/filestream/339492/field_highwire_article_pdf/0/1645.2

BBQ OLD MAN FTW! no minoxidil, fast recovery of hair. Deep wound.

 

[closetmetrosexual]

Of course, if you buy from an Indian IOP, ya don't need the scrip in the first place!

Do you know of one that will ship it without an Rx?
I've looked at 10 or so. They all want Rx in order for you to complete the order.

 

[shivers20]

The results from minoxidil and microneedling should be promising. I believe a cox-2 inhbitor should also be applied on days 4-7 as well. The method should include wounding, growth factors such as pge2 or minoxidil and suppressing inflammation that hampers scarless wound healing. Its what Follica is all about. They are trying to identify all the genes that are involved in scarless fetal skin. They have already found PGD2 as a powerful one. There are many more. Hydrogel holds promise if it works like they say.

Interesting study done on mice using PGE2 & Anti-Inflammatory (cox-2 inhibitor) for regeneration

http://www.triomeetingposters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/115.pdf

 

[jason5]

From what I see the scalp seems a little less palish (which can be a sign of good things happening down under, or a nice tan ), a week isn't enough to see if thicker growth is occurring from this distance unless you use microscopic photographic technology like they did in the dermaroller study. Keep'em coming, do you have week 1 pics?

Yes it's less pale for-sure, I did get some sun but it wasn't much. I just did my 9th session yesterday and suddenly I'm getting blood now, whereas before there wasn't any at all. I know a week isn't enough to see much, but I do shave my head every week and it grows about ~1mm per week, so I do see results quite fast. I personally notice some improvement in thickness.

 

[hellouser]

This thread is an absolute goldmine. Many MANY thanks to PrincessRambo and Squeegee for bringing forth so much information. These guys deserve a huge round of applause.

 

[princessRambo]

http://www.triomeetingposters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/115.pdf

Very interesting post shivers20.

Treatment Groups:
1. Vehicle alone (V) hydrogel (equivalent to that used for the stock solutions)
2. PGE2-Low (PL) 5 ug/ml
3. PGE2-High (PH) 50 ug/ml
4. Nimesulide-Low (NL) 4 ug/ml
5. Nimesulide-High (NH) 40 ug/ml
6. PGE2 + Nimesulide (N+P) 40 ug/ml PGE2 and 40ug/ml Nimesulide

The treatments were applied topically, 25 to 50 ul/wound—sufficient to cover the entire wound surface. The animals were allowed to rest undisturbed for about 10 minutes to permit treatments to penetrate into the tissue. Treatments were given daily on the day of wounding and for the next 3 days


Prostaglandin E2-treated wounds also showed an overall normal rate and pattern of re-epithelialization, the granulation tissue had significantly higher
levels of blood vessels on PWD14 and 21, the onset of collagen deposition
was delayed (PWD7) with both the low and high concentration of PGE2

So basically adding exogenous PGE2 to the wound prevents scar formation and better tissue remodeling. Very interesting, PGE2 is already shot up to an insane level immediately after wounding this might be what's driving the initial tissue remodeling mechanism. Our initial assumptions about not introducing an anti-inflammatory right away might be false after all. So wait a couple of hours for initial coagulations to take place, apply a cox2 inhibitor add exogenous PGE2 daily for better remodeling. Interestingly, looking at their high and low pge2 levels, semen falls right in between with 23 ug/ml... just saying... :whistle:

 

[selfaware]

"Using wound-induced hair follicle neogenesis (WIHN) as a marker of skin regeneration, we hypothesized that PGD2 decreases follicle neogenesis. PGE2 and PGD2 were elevated early and late, respectively, during wound healing."

..."inhibition of PGD2 production or Gpr44 signaling will promote skin regeneration..."

Two thoughts...

- pge and pgd are expressed at different -times-...thus perhaps a simple/cheap non-selective prostaglandin enhancer as topical addition (like Aspirin) might have a net positive effect; if applied near-term after rolling...and stopped at the proper time, so as not to increase pgd2.

- We may not need to actually reduce PGD2 if something exists that blocks gpr44 receptors. Not something I've looked into.

If these have already been covered, my apologies.

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Andres, a few days ago I read an abstract of a study showing that applying emu-oil immediately after wounding produced negative results. Far better healing was achieved by waiting....I think...6 hours. Some number of hours. Whether this is true also of hair-growth from wounding, I cannot say, but I would think so.

Hi squeegee,
Years ago, I used dermaroller to remove some scars from my face (forehead) and used to apply emu oil almost immediately after the bleeding stopped. This gave me pretty good results and my scars were removed almost completely (it took time, though: a couple of years or more). I used emu oil because of its regenerative properties but ALSO because of its anti-inflammatory properties.... (and I think it is very similar to the castor oil many people use here.



Do you think that, in this case, the regenerative properties of the emu oil are less beneficial than the anti-inflammatory ones?
In other words, would you recommend not to use it at the inflammatory stage of the healing process?

...many thanks

 

[princessRambo]

"Using wound-induced hair follicle neogenesis (WIHN) as a marker of skin regeneration, we hypothesized that PGD2 decreases follicle neogenesis. PGE2 and PGD2 were elevated early and late, respectively, during wound healing."

..."inhibition of PGD2 production or Gpr44 signaling will promote skin regeneration..."

Two thoughts...

- pge and pgd are expressed at different -times-...thus perhaps a simple/cheap non-selective prostaglandin enhancer as topical addition (like Aspirin) might have a net positive effect; if applied near-term after rolling...and stopped at the proper time, so as not to increase pgd2.

- We may not need to actually reduce PGD2 if something exists that blocks gpr44 receptors. Not something I've looked into.

If these have already been covered, my apologies.

@hellouser, thanks buddy, you are the one that got us all excited here with that second post linking to follica and all the good information you provided here.

@selfaware: no need to apologize, yes it has been discussed here before but repeating stuff from a different perspective can shine a new light on it. The problem is that, yes inhibiting PGD2 increases WIHN in mice, but you have to remember that mice have a dense population of gamma delta T cells, this is why they regenerate hair because those cells naturally produce fgf9 during regular wound healing. Humans have a very small amount of these cells, therefore we don't induce enough fgf9, therefore the fgf9/wnt feedback loop that is critical for WIHN does not occur for us, therefore no hair.

 

[odalbak]

[h=1][/h]The mention of NF-kB's influence on ageing by Princessrambo reminded me of something I read about the connection between fasting and NF-kB. Both calorie restriction and intermittent fasting have been shown to increase the lifespan of mice in labs. This may be the cheapest way to support our fight against inflammation.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19818847

[h=1]"Alternate-day fasting protects the rat heart against age-induced inflammation and fibrosis by inhibiting oxidative damage and NF-kB activation."[/h]"The free radical theory of aging is currently one of the most popular. In parallel, many studies have demonstrated the association of fibrosis and increased oxidative stress in the pathogenesis of some chronic human diseases, and fibrosis is often characteristic of aging tissues. One of the few interventions that effectively slow aging is calorie restriction and the protection against the age-associated increase of oxidative stress remains one of the foremost hypotheses to explain this action. As an alternative to traditional calorie restriction, another dietary regimen, termed alternate-day fasting, has also been tested, whose antiaging mechanisms have not been explored so much extensively. We thus studied the effects of alternate-day fasting, started at 2 months of age, on oxidative stress and fibrosis in the heart during aging. In the left ventricle of the heart of elderly (aged 24 months) versus young (aged 6 months) male rats we found a significant increase in oxidative stress paralleled by increased fibrosis. In parallel there was a significant increase in inflammatory cytokine levels and in NF-kB DNA binding activity with advancing age. Alternate-day fasting protected against all these age-related phenomena. These data support the hypothesis that this kind of dietary restriction protects against age-related fibrosis, at least in part by reducing inflammation and oxidative damage, and this protection can thus be considered a factor in the prevention of age-related diseases with sclerotic evolution."