Realistic Expectation From Follica's Treatment

BaldyBalderBald

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Somebody was referencing something @Noisette posted as evidence of repeating the treatment. @Noisette does that sound familiar or was it something someone misinterpreted?

Yes it can, i mentionned it several times, That Guy too

"In an embodiment, the treatment regimen is repeated multiple times to build up hair density over time."
The final density reached is not mention tho.

Methods for treating baldness and promoting hair growth
https://www.google.com/patents/WO2012078649A1?cl=en
 

thomps1523

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Yes it can, i mentionned it several times, That Guy too
The exact mention is "Process can be repeated to build density over time", no number involved

Can you post a link? I would be interested to read it. I get the logic oculus is using, because it is strange they put a number on it by saying 19 terminals/square cm rather than saying these are the results but density can be improved each time. Maybe they have like you're saying, I've just never seen it.
 

BaldyBalderBald

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Can you post a link? I would be interested to read it. I get the logic oculus is using, because it is strange they put a number on it by saying 19 terminals/square cm rather than saying these are the results but density can be improved each time. Maybe they have like you're saying, I've just never seen it.

This is a very long read, good luck
 

Toccata

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can you fuse these 2 for me m8?
halflife_F.jpg

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Anoadgypi7_A8_S6_Lt_OUXdw_r.jpg
 
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ManinBlack

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Follica has claimed 25 terminal hairs per squared cm regrowth, which is roughly 1/6 of a normal head of hair. As to the release date, if they enter their pivotal study sometime in 2018, it reasons that it would be commercially available within roughly three years. It's possible it could be sooner, but when has that ever happened? I wouldn't be surprised if it was released in 2021, but I would be very surprised if it wasn't released.

When have any of these hair regrowth treatments been released at all? The last time was anything of efficacy was released was finasteride 20 years ago.
 

That Guy

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Since the treatment works by healing in a particular area thus encourages the cells to do their thing, it is (as far as I know) a reasonable assumption that there is only so many cells than can be "activated" so to speak, to proliferate into desired outcome at any one time.

My basis for this is strain on various systems and metabolic resources that the body allocates when multiple wounds are taken and in close proximity, which is exactly what is happening in Follica's treatment.

From WoundcareInc.

"If you have multiple wounds or have undergone a severe trauma (e.g. surgery) your body’s defense mechanisms will be limited and slow wound repair."

We know that the window to form hair is limited and if the allocation isn't there to form hair in time, it probably defaults to skin.

I struggle to believe the same phenomena doesn't apply here, especially where reconnecting blood flow and vessels are concerned. Obviously though, once you have healed, your body's mechanisms are less limited.

@occulus reasoning of "follica would have said so" is the closest thing I have seen to an actual rebuttal, but I don't think it's a good argument because we don't actually know what the final density they spoke of was.

Further, as evidenced by users like Somebody, who have been successful dermarollers for years and had advanced hairloss; regained ostensibly a full head of hair. The Dhurat study's results were impressive, but all the big wounding studies thus far have not done sufficient follow up. Still, my point stands that there is presently no good scientific reason to believe the results cannot be compounded.

Lastly, regarding release date; I have a difficult time believing — given the pictures of the product, presentations and such — and coupled with their previously expected release date of 2018, that a six month delay or so would suddenly set them back as far as 2020. It's obvious that their infrastructure is more advanced and less demanding than other developing therapies than people are giving them credit for.
 

vernon

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i m amazed that people can simultaneously give arguments for this treatment and subtly add another year or two for the estimated release date. now 2019 is already a stretch, but nobody seems to take a hint from repeated delays. couple of months ago 2018 was a sure thing

fascinating
 

ALightInTheDark

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i m amazed that people can simultaneously give arguments for this treatment and subtly add another year or two for the estimated release date. now 2019 is already a stretch, but nobody seems to take a hint from repeated delays. couple of months ago 2018 was a sure thing

fascinating

Nobody shoulda never do this. We don't know when it'll come out. This is in Phase III, pivotal studies in 2k18 so by the end of 2k18-beggining of 2k19 it could be here. Nothing 100% sure.
 

JeanLucBB

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Anything that requires wounding is for chumps. Enjoy getting necrosis and infection from trying to grow three hairs guys.
 

mr_robot

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In the links noisette posted the 19 hairs/square cm were measured 6 months after treatment, so by repeating I guess I'm saying if the results are stackable that's great. It's also mentioned the treatment can be repeated, so that's why there's hope for the results to be stackable. Guess we'll see...

The problem is people are only looking at the terminal hair count, the total count for new follicles where 25 terminal 75 vellus/cm2 so assuming the same ratio for those 19 hairs/cm2, it would mean to get up to 100 terminal/cm2, 300 vellus hairs per cm2 would also be created which is a total of 400 new follicles in addition to existing miniturized hairs (at a conservative 100cm/2) for a total of 500 folicles/cm2. Add in the fact the the dermal abrasor will cause some micro scaring and I can't see how they can fit in that many follicles in when the average hair density for a person is 200-300cm2.

Also remember that the indian study (which is basically the only study they quote) is minoxidil that has a initial growth spurt when then rolls off over time, I would find it very difficult to believe it could sustain new growth for the 2-3 years you would need to get to 100cm2.
 

BaldyBalderBald

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Nobody shoulda never do this. We don't know when it'll come out. This is in Phase III, pivotal studies in 2k18 so by the end of 2k18-beggining of 2k19 it could be here. Nothing 100% sure.

True that, the fact is i keep hearing 'Follica' since 2008...

Anything that requires wounding is for chumps. Enjoy getting necrosis and infection from trying to grow three hairs guys.

Yeah, that can be the issue here, not necrosis but long term fibrosis due to multiple wounds, i suggest this question to Hellouser for the Follica team, avoiding scarring and fibrosis is indeed a major problem
 

coolio

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Anything that requires wounding is for chumps. Enjoy getting necrosis and infection from trying to grow three hairs guys.

You can die bald if you want. No treatment is ever going to work using only liquid topicals or oral pills. Anything else requires wounding in some capacity, be it Follica's method or others.

The wounding/scarring with heavy dermabrasion & needling work is not deep. Women already go to cosmetic surgery clinics all over the world and get this level of wounding done. On their face. For a net improvement in their skin's appearance.


The problem is people are only looking at the terminal hair count, the total count for new follicles where 25 terminal 75 vellus/cm2 so assuming the same ratio for those 19 hairs/cm2, it would mean to get up to 100 terminal/cm2, 300 vellus hairs per cm2 would also be created which is a total of 400 new follicles in addition to existing miniturized hairs (at a conservative 100cm/2) for a total of 500 folicles/cm2. Add in the fact the the dermal abrasor will cause some micro scaring and I can't see how they can fit in that many follicles in when the average hair density for a person is 200-300cm2.

Also remember that the indian study (which is basically the only study they quote) is minoxidil that has a initial growth spurt when then rolls off over time, I would find it very difficult to believe it could sustain new growth for the 2-3 years you would need to get to 100cm2.

I think it's giving Follica's procedure too much credit to assume they have that degree of control & repeatability. The ratio of terminal vs vellus hairs being created is probably not that rigidly consistent. Those numbers are probably what they got on balded skin during testing. Areas that are only thinning may come out differently.

The skin knows a lot about regrowing itself. Follica's science is only working to prod the process along. The premise is already assumed (and proven with real world examples) that the skin will regrow new terminals hairs in the correct direction, color, curl, depth. It seems rather arbitrary to decide that the skin won't also steer itself towards normal terminal density/coverage too.
 

mr_robot

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I think it's giving Follica's procedure too much credit to assume they have that degree of control & repeatability. The ratio of terminal vs vellus hairs being created is probably not that rigidly consistent. Those numbers are probably what they got on balded skin during testing. Areas that are only thinning may come out differently.

The 25/75 is probably the best case senario, you never market your worst/average case. My point is that people are banking on it being repeatable and the numbers are impossible for 100/cm2 terminal hairs if it is repeatable, which it wont be.

The skin knows a lot about regrowing itself. Follica's science is only working to prod the process along. The premise is already assumed (and proven with real world examples) that the skin will regrow new terminals hairs in the correct direction, color, curl, depth. It seems rather arbitrary to decide that the skin won't also steer itself towards normal terminal density/coverage too.

The percentage of vellus hairs on a non balding scalp should be close to 0%, Follica is producing 75% so it is not steering the skin itself to normal terminal density/coverage at all. There is no evidence or even suggestion that continued application will reduce that percentage towards zero, in fact simple maths says it cant.

Follica is the new Brotzu when it comes to blind faith in a treatment.
 

NimuDash

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Oh the drama and emo feelings.
Speculation without knowing anything.
Even their trials may not show the full potential as most of them span only 6 months in hair industry.
Pro tip: if you assume that everythimg new will give you sh*t results you are a moron (and you do that cuz u are not even a NW4 yet, rogaine and finasteride gives you sh*t results hence all the new therapies will give sh*t results, lol f*** logic)
Some of u are 10 years balding, some of u don't give sh*t about diffuse thinners, because you are not one themselves, Tsuji will cover my *** and he only, no one else you think f*** diffusers.
Nobody can predict the future, your OCD is way more than crazy.
Chill.
Hey wanna hear a joke: Follica said it works best in young patients, lol im no shittin, read interviews.
Shave your arm hair, the more you do the quicker and more of it you have, lol.
 

d3nt3dsh0v3l

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Anything that requires wounding is for chumps. Enjoy getting necrosis and infection from trying to grow three hairs guys.
Lmao this is pretty retarded. You know that follica is offering wounding as an in clinic treatment only right? They're not going to just give their clients needles and tell them to go home and have fun. Because yeah, there IS some guy somewhere that will get an infection. No doctor now is telling people to go home and regularly roll with anything larger than 0.5 mm, just like no doctor is prescribing RU58841 to people. The people you see online doing that are not representative of the actual treatment. They have just decided to take the risk. The actual in home device is just a topical applicator.

Also bro have you seen our current hairloss tech? Attenuating DHT levels and taking female hormones for a few hairs. Let's not pretend that if wounding works, and assuming that it is safe in the clinic (which it is, because dermarolling and other needling procedures are already offered clinically), that it's not such a bad replacement of current gen treatment.

Why so bitter?
 
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BaldyBalderBald

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Oh the drama and emo feelings.
Speculation without knowing anything.
Even their trials may not show the full potential as most of them span only 6 months in hair industry.
Pro tip: if you assume that everythimg new will give you sh*t results you are a moron (and you do that cuz u are not even a NW4 yet, rogaine and finasteride gives you sh*t results hence all the new therapies will give sh*t results, lol f*** logic)
Some of u are 10 years balding, some of u don't give sh*t about diffuse thinners, because you are not one themselves, Tsuji will cover my *** and he only, no one else you think f*** diffusers.
Nobody can predict the future, your OCD is way more than crazy.
Chill.
Hey wanna hear a joke: Follica said it works best in young patients, lol im no shittin, read interviews.
Shave your arm hair, the more you do the quicker and more of it you have, lol.

10 years of trials = 6 months results
Lol, works best in young patients, i got to admit, that's a good one, Brotzu said the same, typical excuses for shaddy products
 

NimuDash

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10 years of trials = 6 months results
Lol, works best in young patients, i got to admit, that's a good one, Brotzu said the same, typical excuses for shaddy products
Just so you know, these results of regrowth after 6 months is higher than what finasteride and min can regrow. Sad, but it is da truth.

I'm of opinion that antiandrogen is absolutely needed for hf quality.
 
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